As most people reading this blog we know Christianity is a large category that then divides into many small denominations of varying belief.
Disclaimer: There are so many different denominations of Christianity- I am not at all saying that all of them believe in things I mention in the next paragraph. Also- they might have different beliefs about the next paragraph that I may not mention. I do plan to do other blogs on specific denominations in more detail.As a larger group for the sake of this blog at the request of a dear friend- I will label most of Christianity(which is not every denomination/ exclusively only believing these sets of beliefs but) tends to believe in Miracles as the healing or the intervening of God. The Trinity to many Christians is the Father, Son, and Holy ghost/Divine Creator-Human self- and the Holy Ghost is the part of God that is with the believers- helps communicate God's message to them- an essence if you will. All of these three entities are separate beings who make up the one Almighty God. Many Christians believe there are sets of rules to follow that do not necessarily get you into heaven, but may help- like the ten commandments, baptism, sacraments, and communion. There many or none of these rules in some sects of Christianity.
Deists(there are more than one kind) generally believe in one god, but in no way believe in miracles, or that god intervenes in the world- only that god put the wheels into motion and god exists inside of nature or the natural. God to a deist is not found through epiphany or revelation, but through reason and that is god's greatest gift(in their opinion). No dogma and no mystery, but god created and governs the universe.
Deism came about when religious people were the elite and reason was looked down upon/hoarded by the wealthy. As we know people of power can sometimes misrepresent something like religion- but that doesn't make the religion the reason people suck, right? But, I can get why they'd want something else to believe.
I have doubts about Christianity because I am not sure which branch to follow and other Eastern Religions have similar messages that I like, but even better- there are less Buddhists running to funerals with hate signs or blowing up buildings or shooting innocent people( and the Chinese Government is committing genocide against them right this moment- so if anyone has a reason to do something extreme- surely it would be people who are being wiped off the map- the end of their god(literally Buddha will not be reincarnated into a human if he does not die in Tibet and he is exiled right now ) and people like them- their future-families-livelyhood etc etc.?) I am not Buddhist- just not Christian.
My problem with Deism is an age old logical one. How do you say that god exists to create the world, but now only sits back to watch- what reason would a being do that? My search for God has always held the question or questions like "What kind of being would do, allow, create x, y, z?" It doesn't make sense why God would not help if it could? But as you can see it's also the question to Christians- if God intervenes sometimes- why doesn't it all the time? I do realize that hypothetically God might need us to learn things on our own. But, there does not appear to be enough reason for me to assume God exists, but that for some reason it has no involvement in what it has created. I guess this might be as arbitrary as thinking it should have involvement, but then there we are I guess.
As you might see- to me God would not be worth worshiping if it was not good. And then, for me personally- there is right outside of religion and wrong besides what a book might say. If someone could some how show me that God did not exist- it would still be wrong to kill another person- or torture a sentient being for no reason.
The other problem it the natural problem? What is the definition of natural? Is it a tree? Does it matter if the tree has been genetically modified? Does it matter if a person planted it? Are wild and natural the same? If a tree was planted and grew into a sprout all by itself, but was pruned by a gardener- is it now unnatural? Is science unnatural? machines? Stem Cell research? Are humans natural? Homosexuality? Racism?
Just because something is natural does that imply it is the way things should be? Is Medicine natural? are drugs natural? Is the natural x,y, or z the good or the right thing. (In philosophy good and right are not the same things. I don't feel like explaining that here so wiki it if you want to know X)
As you can see from the head ache that I just gave you- Deist imply that natural is the good or the right thing.
Maybe I will not find a religion because I analyze too much? I do realize at some point religion just takes faith. And I guess I forgot how to do that or stopped doing that or maybe never did that and thought I did?
So there you have it- a few big distinctions between Deism and Christianity.
Mas
So, I'm not commenting to start an argument. You have spoken your mind and I respect that. You seem to have questions, and while I don't pretend that I can answer them, I would like to share my thoughts on many of the same questions.
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out that the Trinity consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of the same being, God, but are rather individual entities while also being the same entity. It's a difficult concept to grasp. I would look up the teachings of St. Augustine of Hippo for more on the subject.
You mentioned violence performed by religious groups, and this something I have thought a lot about lately. Buddhists, like any other religious group, have their radicalist. I know in Thailand there is constant sectarian violence between Buddhists and Muslims, and in Sri Lanka a few years ago there were Buddhists monks involved in violence against a Christian church. You mentioned China specifically, and the Buddhists do fight back against the Chinese government. The Chinese government suppresses most of the media about violence from or against Buddhists, but if you check some of the IRCs coming out of Torpark you can hear stories of Buddhists actively fighting back. My opinion is that the media in the US sensationalizes the stories they know will make money, so they mostly show stories of Christians or Muslims performing acts of violence when the truth is that all religious groups have violent radicals.
You spoke at length about Deism, and I have to thank you for providing an alternative perspective on the subject. I haven't been able to find much material covering Deism, It seems almost like Apatheism in that regard.
For me, it hasn't been a question of proving if God(s) exist, but of proving that humans weren't involved in the creation of God(s).
I could potentially talk forever on this subject and still feel like I've done nothing but raise more questions, so here seems like a good place to stop. I look forward to more of your musings.
Perhaps deism believes God does not intervene because they believe he respects free will. That answers the question of how God could let something like x happen- he doesn't put his fingers in the pot. Something to combat that is determinism vs indeterminism. If God is such, then is our world chaos, left to chance and directly in violation of deism idea of reason (indeterminism)? Or is determinism the answer, suggestion to some that that would take free will entirely out the equation. Looking at humans' relationship with God, could he not be a parent wanting to let his offspring find their own way, as you mentioned? I think not because for some of the things that have happened in this world there must be a point at which He, our supposed Father, steps in to offer a hand as we beg for help. The perception of miracles has been bastardised in the form of grilled cheese Mary's and the Holy Veil. Do these exist because people are looking for a sign, proof their faith isn't misguided? If so, then these things should be understood to not be miracles or signs from the divine creator. What happened to the days of "did that really just happen?" true miracles, if they happen anymore, have been shunned by our "rational" society. (It feels like we're playing into someone's hand- I wonder who?)
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I think often people don't ask for God's help. Perhaps He does answer, when he's called out to. What if the times we thing we are truly in need of something are actually times when we should button down and fight for ourselves? Can we really see the big picture so well that we know when we really need help- or is that question itself an escape used by a society-biased opinion of not relying on something you can neither see nor touch?
I was reading how people had more time as early as 50 years ago. That we work 1/3 more that our grandfathers. The pressures of our modern day society aside (I imagine you want a real conversation not excuses forgiving how people just act the way they do) this does legitimately cut into the time spent as a community. Here the spiritual community is rushed, and trivializes because of it. You can justify missing shul Friday night because you have to work late, or missing Saturday morning because you were just so tired. I personally worry so very much about our lack of community, and spiritually it shows as well.
Taking all that into consideration I have no solution, no answer to the question of deism and how on Earth it could stand on its own. All I can do it make my own community, try my best to bond with people, like you, and work towards a greater understanding that one mind alone cannot figure out.
(I don't know if I can even ponder the answer to the question, "If God does intervene sometimes then why not all the time?" because my questions towards the slippery slope are still alive and breathing.)
The only thing I can say about the "nature/natural" topic is that humans are inconsistent. I believe that when we trim our bushes we are trying to dominate nature but I also believe there are social benefits to doing so. So what's right and why don't we, as a whole, try to figure that out?
St. Augustine's mentioned in your first comment and I feel obligated to point out that he believed that something real is always more good (whatever that may mean) than something that is not. And because God is good, he is real. Not paying any mind to the fact he never defined what real is or that, like you said, how do you know God is good.
I must also mention that I have a deep passion for his book Confessions, which to me is the greatest love letter ever written. Because of that I am much more understanding of his misguided views than I would otherwise be. I'm biased, what else is new?
The mini blog is concluded!
Comment 1
ReplyDelete~As a pretty intense baptist for most of my twenty odd years- I was taught that the Trinity was exactly as I wrote it. There are many things that can be the case here. We could have learned different definitions from going to churches of differing denominations, or one of us could have learned incorrectly- probably not you- because you seem so very sure of your definition.
Or the words that we used to describe ourselves could be trivial and we could mean the same thing.
I have read quite a bit(being all) of the bible more than one time through. I did disclaim that my exact def. was not to be applied to every denomination- because beliefs inside of different Christian denominations are staggering.
~ Also I am aware of the violence inside of Tibet- for and against Buddhist. I did not go into depth on the whole- but what I do very much admire about the Buddhists who happen to live inside of the oppression that is happening to them is that they must deny their teachings and their belief to fight for themselves.
The duality of such a forgiving and tolerant belief system is being told- "deny your belief by fighting and save what will no longer be the same with your action of violence. Or die in silence and we will be rid of you."
As for Sri Lanka and Thailand I have some reading up to do.
Boss! DANG GIRL! you went all intense and shit. XD I love it. and I am pondering.
~ I don't believe that determinism has to do with God creating miracles bc if God is all knowing, all good, all powerful (mostly the first and last) it could completely determine the world while knowing it was going to create a miracle- so the miracles would be built into the system. X)
~ your second paragraph leads to- we humans probably don't know what is good for us while (all knowing) God does. Which in theory should work well. Buuutt. . . when I look around I don't always see a lot of good. And if this is God's will- all the murder, all the hate, all the pain- even if it leads to it's idea of good- the older I get I realize I am more Kantian than I previously knew. Is this world a means to an end??? If so- is God using us as a means to an end.
Ironically- depending on the day- I can look out the window and not understand how the world was not created by something beautiful- and other days I can wonder how awful God has to be to create such a shit hole. I know this is forward, but that's exactly how I feel. And I decided a while back I am not sorry for my feelings. <3 MAS